YEAR DRAWS TO A CLOSE.
TIME TO REASSESS HOW TO FOSTER STRONGER CONNECTIONS.
AT HOME, AT WORK, AND THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES.
DAVID BROOKS IS AN OPINION COLUMNIST AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND THAT IS THE FOCUS OF HIS LATEST BOOK, "HOW TO KNOW A PERSON: THE ART OF SEEING OTHERS DEEPLY AND BEING DEEPLY SEEN."
HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLORE WHAT IT MEANS TO PRACTICE EMPATHY IN AN INCREASINGLY LONELY WORLD.
>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
DAVID BROOKS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> IT'S GOOD TO BE BACK.
>> THIS BOOK, "HOW TO KNOW A PERSON," IS PHILOSOPHICAL AND GREAT NARRATIVE IN IT, BUT IT ALSO HAS SOME USEFUL TIPS.
AND ONE OF THEM, IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW A PERSON, START WITH, TELL ME ABOUT GROWING UP.
I'M GOING TO START THERE AND ASK YOU ABOUT GROWING UP AND HOW IT MADE YOU A DETACHED OBSERVER AT FIRST.
>> YEAH, THE STORY I TELL IN THE MOVIE "FIDDLER ON THE ROOF," YOU KNOW HOW EMOTIONAL JEWISH FAMILIES CAN BE, THEY'RE ALWAYS SINGING AND DANCING, I COME FROM THE OTHER KIND OF JEWISH FAMILY.
THE CULTURE IN OUR FAMILY WAS THINK YIDDISH, ACT BRITISH.
YOU COULD HAVE A NICE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE EVOLUTION OF LACTOSE INTOLERANCE.
I WAS NOT THE MOST EMOTIONALLY AVAILABLE PERSON ON EARTH.
SO, I'VE BEEN ON A JOURNEY, REALLY, OVER 15 YEARS AND YOU'VE KNOWN ME FOR A LONG TIME, WALTER, TO TRY TO BECOME A MORE -- A PERSON BETTER AT RECOGNIZING MY OWN EMOTIONS, RECOGNIZING OTHER PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS, BETTER AT INTIMACY AND BETTER CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE.
SO, THE BOOK IS PARTLY, YOU KNOW, WE WRITERS WORK OUT OUR STUFF IN PUBLIC, SO, I JUST WANTED TO BECOME A MUCH BETTER PERSON AT UNDERSTANDING THE PEOPLE AROUND ME AND MAKING THEM FEEL RESPECTED, HEARD, LISTENED TO AND LIT UP.
>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE OLDEST PIECES OF WISDOM I THINK WE HAVE IN HUMANITY IS FROM THE TEMPLE OF THE ORACLE OF DELPHI, KNOW THYSELF.
HOW DID YOU KNOW THYSELF?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I FOUND MYSELF KNOWING MYSELF BY KNOWING OTHERS.
I'M A LITTLE SUSPICIOUS OF JUST SITTING IN A ROOM AND STARING AT YOUR NAVEL, THAT'S NOT MY STYLE.
YOU HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHER PEOPLE.
YOU SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
SO, TO ME, THE ART OF CONVERSATION, IS REALLY THE ART OF BEING A HUMAN BEING, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I LEARNED, LIKE MOST OF US, I WAS NOT AS GOOD AS I THOUGHT I WAS AT BEING A GOOD CONVERSATIONALIST, AT TAKING A MEDIOCRE CONVERSATION AND TURNING IT INTO A MEMORABLE CONVERSATION.
ONE OF THE THINGS I KNOW US CANNED ON IN THE BOOK AND IN LIFE IS JUST ASKING REALLY GOOD QUESTIONS.
SOMETIMES GO TO A PARTY AND I LEAVE AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE TIME, NOBODY ASKED ME A QUESTION.
AND I FOUND THAT ONLY ABOUT 30% OR 40% OF HUMANITY ARE QUESTION ASKERS.
I TRY TO ASK PEOPLE BIG QUESTIONS.
AND THESE ARE QUESTIONS, LIKE, IF THIS NEXT FIVE YEARS IS A CHAPTER IN YOUR LIFE, WHAT WOULD THE CHAPTER BE ABOUT?
OR, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU WEREN'T AFRAID, WHAT ROLE DOES FEAR PLAY IN YOUR LIFE?
WHAT WOULD WE BE CELEBRATING A YEAR FROM NOW?
AND THESE ARE QUESTIONS -- PEOPLE DON'T HAVE EASY ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS.
THEY HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT.
AND THEN WE HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION ABOUT SOME OF THE DEEPER ASPECTS OF LIFE, AND WE GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER, AND IN THAT WAY, WE GET TO KNOW OURSELVES.
>> HAS SOCIAL MEDIA HELPED OR HURT US IN BUILDING THESE SKILLS?
>> IT'S BEEN MASSIVELY TERRIBLE.
YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THE SOCIAL STATISTICS OF SUICIDE, DEPRESSION, MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS, THE NUMBER OF AMERICANS WHO SAY THEY HAVE NO CLOSE PERSONAL FRIENDS HAS GONE UP BY FOUR-FOLD SINCE 2000.
THE AMOUNT OF TIME WE SPEND WITH OUR FRIENDS HAS GONE DOWN 60%.
AND SOCIAL MEDIA HAS JUST BEFORE BEEN -- HAD THIS CORROING EFFECT ON OUR ABILITY TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS.
IN SOCIAL MEDIA, THERE'S JUDGMENT EVERYWHERE AND UNDERSTANDING NOWHERE.
PEOPLE ARE PERFORMING THEMSELVES, BUT THEY'RE NOT REALLY VULNERABLE WITH EACH OTHER.
THEY'RE NOT REALLY HAVING THE KIND OF COMMUNICATION THAT HUMAN BEINGS REQUIRE.
AND SO, PART OF THE BOOK IS JUST, LIKE, AN ANTIDOTE TO AN AGE OF SHALLOW, PERFORMATIVE RELATIONSHIPS AND TO GET US BACK TO HAVING, LIKE, REAL CONVERSATIONS, TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE DEPRESSED, TO TALK TO PEOPLE SUFFERING FROM GRIEF, HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE ACROSS DIFFERENCE.
I THINK SOCIAL MEDIA, THE ACCUMULATING EFFECT ON OUR CULTURE HAS BEEN SURPRISINGLY TERRIBLE.
>> YOU KNOW, YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EPIDEMIC OF LONELINESS, THAT PEOPLE SAY NOW THAT THEY DON'T HAVE REAL CLOSE FRIENDS.
BUT IT'S GOT TO BE MORE THAN SOCIAL MEDIA.
I MEAN, SINCE ROBERT PUTNAM DID BOWLING ALONE, WE'VE HAD THIS PROBLEM ON OUR RADAR SCREEN WHAT ARE THE OTHER REASONS?
>> YEAH, SO, THE SOCIAL MEDIA STORY, BUT AS YOU SAY, IT'S EVERYWHERE, BUT DENMARK IS NOT HAVING A LONELINESS CRISIS, JAPAN IS NOT.
THERE'S SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT THE CULTURE OF SOCIAL MEDIA AS IT INTERACTS WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER CAUSES.
WE'RE JUST LESS ACTIVE IN CIVIC LIFE.
SOME OF IT IT IS, WE HAVE AN INDIVIDUALISTIC CULTURE.
IT MAKES US PRETTY BAD AT SOCIAL CONVENTION.
BUT THE PIECE OF THE STORY I SORT OF FOCUS ON IS SKILLS.
TO GET TO KNOW ANOTHER PERSON, TO CURE LONELINESS, YOU HAVE TO BE OPEN-HAEFRTED, AND THAT'S PART OF IT, BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO PRACTICE CERTAIN PRACTICAL SOCIAL SKILLS.
HOW DO YOU CRITIQUE SOMEBODY IN YOUR WORKPLACE WITH CARE SO THEY FEEL SUPPORTED?
HOW DO YOU BREAK UP WITH SOMEONE WITHOUT CRUSHING THEIR HEART?
HOW DO YOU HOST A DINNER PARTY SO EVERYBODY FEELS INCLUDED?
YOU KNOW, I SAW A STUDY JUST A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, THE NUMBER OF YOUNG MEN WHO HAVE NEVER ASKED ANYBODY OUT ON A DATE IS SUPER HIGH THESE DAYS, AND WHY?
IT'S BECAUSE THEY STINK AT FLIRTING.
THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO ASK PEOPLE OUT.
AND SO IT'S A BASIC LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS THAT WE SOMEHOW HAVE FAILED TO TEACH SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS.
>> BASIC LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS, BUT YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT A LOSS OF MORAL KNOWLEDGE, AND THAT SEEMED PRETTY PROFOUND WHEN I WAS READING THAT.
HOW DOES THAT CONNECT TO THE LOSS OF SOCIAL SKILLS?
>> WELL, WHAT IS MORALITY?
SOMETIMES WE THINK IT'S OBEYING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND I AGREE, IT IS SORT OF THAT, BUT MOSTLY MORALITY IS BEING CON SID RATE TO PEOPLE IN THE COMPLEX CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE.
IN OTHER WORDS, MORALITY IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY AS WE TREAT EACH OTHER.
AND THE FIRST MORAL ACT IS THE ACT OF PAYING ATTENTION TO SOMEONE, IS CASTING A GAZE THAT IS WARM, COMPASSION GNAT, UNDERSTANDING.
IF YOU CAST A GAZE THAT'S COLD, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE ARE UNTRUSTWORTHY.
IF YOU CAST A GAZE WITH YOUR EYES THAT IS SCARED, YOU'LL FIND THREAT EVERYWHERE.
BUT IF YOU CAST A GAZE THAT'S GENEROUS AND TENDER, YOU'LL FIND PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE STRUGGLES OF LIFE DOING THE BEST THEY CAN.
SO, TO ME, WHAT WE HAVE FAILED TO DO IS TO TEACH, TO DO THIS THING CALLED MORAL FORMATION.
IT REALLY MEANS THREE THINGS.
THE FIRST IS, HELPING PEOPLE RESTRAIN THEIR NATURAL SELFISHNESS.
THE SECOND IS, HELPING PEOPLE FIND AN IDEAL, SOME CAUSE OR TRUST THEY CAN SERVE.
AND THIRD, IT'S JUST THESE CONCRETE SOCIAL SKILLS OF TREATING PEOPLE WITH CONSIDERATION IN THE COMPLEX CIRCUMSTANCES OF LIFE.
AND PEOPLE USED TO TEACH THIS, SCHOOLS FELT IT WAS THEIR JOB, THIS IS WHAT WE DO, WE TEACH PEOPLE TO BE CONSIDERATION TO EACH OTHER, AND NOW THE SCHOOLS ARE ABOUT GETTING A JOB, GETTING KIDS INTO HARVARD.
BUT THEY'RE NOT ABOUT CHARACTER FORMATION ANYMORE, AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN A TERRIBLE COST TO THAT.
>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING REAL CONVERSATIONS.
AND YOU MADE A DISTINCTION ABOUT TWO TYPES OF CONVERSATIONS, AND IT STRUCK ME SO MUCH THAT EVERY TIME I LISTEN TO A CONVERSATION, I APPLY YOUR METRIC, WHICH IS, A CONVERSATION IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE COMMENT-MAKING, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY WANT TO MAKE A COMMENT, THEY WANT TO TOP SOMEBODY'S LAST COMMENT, SAY, OH, YOU KNOW, I CAN TOP THAT, AND A CONVERSATION IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE STORY-TELLING.
THEY'RE TELLING A NARRATIVE.
EVEN MENTIONED OUR MUTUAL FRIEND MICHAEL LEWIS, AND YOU SAID, WHY IS HE SO POPULAR?
HE'S FROM NEW ORLEANS, AND HE JUST TELLS STORIES EVERY TIME YOU ASK HIM SOMETHING, IT'S A STORY-TELLING CONVERSATION.
>> YEAH, ONE OF THE THINGS, FIRST, THE NEGATIVE, HOW NOT TO DO CONVERSATION, YOU REFERRED TO IT.
I FOUND IT REALLY RESONATED WITH PEOPLE IN A WAY I DIDN'T ANTICIPATE.
DON'T BE A TOPPER.
IF YOU TELL ME, OH, I JUST HAD THIS TERRIBLE FLIGHT, I WAS ON THE TARMAC FOR TWO HOURS.
I'M GOING TO SAY, I HAD A TERRIBLE FLIGHT, THREE WEEKS AGO, I WAS ON THE TARMAC FOR FOUR HOURS.
IT SOUNDS LIKE I'M TRYING TO RELATE TOW, BUT REALLY, I'M TRYING TO SAY, LET'S STOP TALKING ABOUT YOU, LET'S START TALKING ABOUT ME AND MY SUPERIOR EXPERIENCES.
THEN, SO, ONE CONVERSATIONAL RULE IS, DON'T BE A TOPPER.
BUT THEN, ON THE PLUS SIDE, AS YOU SAID, IT'S JUST, MAKE IT STORY-TELLING CONVERSATIONS.
SO, EVEN IN -- IN POLITICS, WHEN I'M INTERVIEWING PEOPLE FOR MY JOB, I NO LONGER ASK THEM, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?
I ASK THEM, HOW DID YOU COME TO BELIEVE THAT?
AND THAT GETS THEM TELLING A STORY ABOUT THEIR VALUES, THEIR FAMILY, AND WE'RE IN STORY-TELLING MODE AND YOU JUST GET A MUCH RICHER VERSION.
>> PART OF THE THEME IN THIS BOOK IS THE NEED TO HAVE EMPATHY TO REALLY DEEPLY FEEL THE PERSON AROUND YOU, AND I'M WONDERING, ARE THERE PEOPLE WHO ARE HARD-WIRED IN SOME WAYS THAT THEY'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT EMPATHY AND HOW WOULD THEY OVERCOME THAT?
>> YOU KNOW, IN MY VIEW, EMPATHY IS LIKE ATHLETIC ABILITY.
SOME OF US ARE BORN WITH MORE AND SOME OF US ARE BORN WITH LESS, BUT WE CAN GET BETTER WITH PRACTICE.
AND TO ME, EMPATHY IS THREE THINGS.
WE THINK OF IT AS A GUSH OF EMOTION, BUT EMPATHY IS THREE SEPARATE SKILLS.
THE FIRST IS THE SKILL OF MIRRORING, IF I WANT TO CATCH THE EMOTION.
YOU'RE ANGRY, I FEEL THAT.
YOU'RE SAD, I FEEL THAT.
SO, I'M MIRRORING.
THE SECOND IS MENTALIZING.
AND THAT'S WHERE I USE MY COGNITIVE ABILITIES TO IMAGINE WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH.
SO, IF IT'S YOUR FIRST DAY ON THE JOB, WELL, I'VE BEEN FIRST DAY ON A JOB, I KNOW THE MIX OF EMOTIONS THAT HAPPEN THERE, YOU'RE EXCITED TO BE THERE, YOU ARE ANXIOUS YOU'RE NOT GOING TO LIVE UP, YOU'RE MEETING ALL THESE NEW PEOPLE AND SO I CAN MENTALIZE WHAT YOU'RE GOING THROUGH.
AND THEN, THE THIRD IS CARING.
SO, CON ARTISTS ARE REALLY GOOD AT UNDERSTANDING WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING, WE DON'T CARE.
SO, WE DON'T SAY THEY'RE EMPATHETIC.
YOU HAVE TO BE EFFECTIVELY CARING.
AND THAT'S DOING THE THING THE OTHER PERSON NEEDS.
I WRITE ABOUT A CASE, AND HE HAD A WOMAN IN HIS CONGREGATION THAT SUFFERED A BRAIN INJURY AND SOMETIMES SHE FELL TO THE FLOOR.
SHE JUST FELL.
AND SHE TOLD HIM, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE SEE ME FALL TO THE FLOOR, THEY RUSH TO PICK ME UP BECAUSE THEY'RE SO UNCOMFORTABLE SEEING AN ADULT LAYING ON THE GROUND.
BUT WHAT I REALLY NEED AT THAT MOMENT IS FOR SOMEBODY TO JUST GET DOWN ON THE GROUND WITH ME.
AND I THINK THAT'S THE DEFINITION OF EMPATHY.
JUST THE ABILITY TO GET DOWN ON THE GROUND, METAPHORICALLY OR LITERALLY WITH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AND OFFER THEM WHAT THEY NEED AT A TIME OF STRESS.
>> YOU'VE BEEN WRITING A LOT ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, I KNOW YOU WENT OUT TO SEE SOME OF OPENAI, I'M WONDERING, CAN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, CAN A.I.
EVER FEEL EMPATHY?
EVER KNOW A PERSON?
>> NO.
NO.
YOU KNOW, I -- I TALK TO A LOT OF A.I.
PEOPLE, WE'RE GOING TO ACHIEVE THIS THING CALLED ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE, THE MACHINE TO THINK THE WAY HUMANS DO AND THEN I CALL NEUROSCIENTISTS, I SAY, DO YOU THINK THEY'RE CLOSE TO HAVING MACHINES THAT THINK LIKE HUMANS.
AND THEY WOULD BE A NICE TRICK, THEY SAY, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW HOW HUMANS THINK.
ONE OF THE REASONS I'M LESS WORRIED ABOUT A.I., I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO HAVE ANYTHING CLOSE TO HUMAN CAPABILITIES FOR A LONG, LONG TIME, AND MAYBE EVER.
SO, IT CAN'T DO BASIC THINGS LIKE UNDERSTANDING, LIKE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S DOING.
HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A MENTAL MODEL OF THE WORLD AND A.I.
DOESN'T.
IT'S JUST -- IT JUST PREDICTS LANGUAGE.
HUMAN BECOMES HAVE THE ABILITY TO THINK WITH OUR BODIES.
AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STRUCK ME RESEARCHING THE BOOK, I'VE ALWAYS INTERVIEWED NEUROSCIENTISTS FOR VARIOUS BOOKS I'VE BEEN WRITING, BUT NOW THEY'RE MUCH MORE INTO THE BODY.
THEY'RE MUCH MORE THINKING THAT THE BRAIN IS NOT JUST AN ISOLATED THING UP IN THE SKULL.
IT'S IN CONSTANT COMMUNICATION THROUGH THE VEGAS NERVE AND OTHER THINGS WITH THE BODY, AND THERE ARE NEURONS IN THE BODY.
AND THE NEURONS IN THE BODY, TO SIMPLIFY THINGS, ARE FEELING, THEY'RE PRODUCING EMOTIONS, AND THERE'S EMOTIONS THAT ARE TELLING US WHAT WE SHOULD VALUE AND WHAT WE SHOULD NOT VALUE, WHO WE LIKE AND WHO WE DON'T LIKE.
AND A.I.
CAN MIMIC THAT.
IT CAN COPY THAT, BECAUSE HUMANS EXPRESSION THEIR EMOTIONS IN LANGUAGE, BUT A.I.
CAN'T HAVE EMOTIONS.
I DON'T WORRY ABOUT A.I.
TAKING OVER THE WORLD, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT'S CLOSE TO WHAT WE HAVE.
>> THE FIRST HALF OF YOUR BOOK IS MAINLY ABOUT PERSONAL INTERACTIONS, AND THE SECOND HALF, YOU APPLY THAT MORE TO THE SOCIAL STRIFE, THE THINGS WE'RE FACING TODAY, AND THERE'S A SENTENCE, IF I CAN READ IT TO YOU, SAYS, MANY OF OUR BIG NATIONAL PROBLEMS ARISE FROM THE FRAYING OF OUR SOCIAL FABRIC.
IF WE WANT TO BEGIN REPAIRING BIG NATIONAL RUPTURES, WE HAVE TO LEARN TO DO THE SMALL THINGS WELL.
SO, HOW DOES YOUR BOOK APPLY TO THIS AWFUL PERIOD WE'RE IN IN TERMS OF OUR SOCIAL FABRIC?
>> YEAH, WELL, YOU JUST LOOKED AT -- WE LIVING IN SUCH A BRUTALIZING TIME, YOU LOOK AT THE BIG DATES THAT DEFINE OUR CENTURY, SEPTEMBER 11th, JANUARY 6th, OCTOBER 7th, 2023.
THEY'RE JUST BRUTALIZING.
WE ARE LIVING WITH THIS TIME OF WHERE WE'RE UNDER ASSAULT, WHERE THERE'S VIOLENCE, WHERE THERE'S RHETORICAL VIOLENCE, WHERE THERE'S CANCELING, AND MY VIEW IS THE ONLY REALLY EFFECTIVE AND PRACTICAL RESPONSE TO THAT KIND OF CLIMATE IS A KIND OF DEFIANT HUMANISM, THAT IS SAYING, THE WORLD AROUND ME IS BRUTAL, BUT I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH CURIOSITY, I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH TRUTH, I'M GOING TO LEAD WITH VULNERABILITY, AND SOMETIMES I'LL BE BETRAYED, BUT I'M STILL GOING TO LEAD WITH TRUST, BECAUSE I THINK MOST OF THE TIME, IF I LEAD WITH TRUST, THE PERSON I'M ENCOUNTERING WILL LEAD WITH TRUST.
MOST OF THE TIME, WE'RE GOING TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.
SO, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW HOW TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ACROSS RACIAL DIFFERENCE, ETHNIC DIFFERENCE, POLITICAL DIFFERENCE.
AND ONE OF THE TIPS I'VE LEARNED, WHEN PEOPLE COME TO ME WITH CRITIQUE BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH ME FROM THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT IS, MY FIRST INSTINCT IS TO GET ALL DEFENSIVE, BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO DO IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES IS TRY TO STAND IN THEIR STANDPOINT.
ASK THEM THREE OR FOUR OR FIVE TIMES, TELL ME MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK, HOW DID YOU COME TO BELIEVE THAT, TELL ME MORE, WHAT I'M I MISSING HERE?
AND IF I ASK THEM THREE, FOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THEIR POINT OF VIEW, I MAY NOT AGREE WITH THEM OR I MAY NOT PERSUADE THEM, BUT AT LEAST I'M SHOWING THEM RESPECT.
RESPECT IS LIKE AIR.
WHEN IT'S ABSENT, IT'S ALL PEOPLE CAN THINK ABOUT.
WE HAVE TO ASK THEM, WHAT AM I MISSING?
>> THOSE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS YOU JUST DESCRIBE IS SOMETHING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN WRET ABOUT IN A PIECE CALLED "ON CONVERSATION."
AND HE SAID IT WAS A KEY TO THE DEMOCRACY WE'RE TRYING TO CREATE.
DEMOCRACY'S SO THREATENED AROUND THE WORLD.
IS WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ONE >> YOU KNOW, WE THINK OF DEMOCRACY AS THIS THING THAT HAPPENS IN THE VOTING BOOTH OR MAYBE IN THE LEGISLATURE SOMEWHERE, BUT DEMOCRACY IS BASICALLY ABOUT HUMAN ENCOUNTER.
IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW COMING TOGETHER AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER.
COMING TOGETHER AND TRYING TO COMPROMISE.
COMING TOGETHER AND TRY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS AND MAYBE ADD TO EACH OTHER'S VIEWPOINTS.
AND SO, TO ME, DEMOCRACY IS ELEMENTALLY ABOUT THE KIND OF SOCIAL SKILLS THAT I'M TALKING ABOUT HERE.
AND THE OTHER THING ABOUT THE BOOK, AS YOU MENTIONED BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, WE'VE BOTH BEEN AFFECTED BY FRANKLIN, YOU KNOW, THE IDEA OF SELF-IMPROVEMENT IS SUCH AN AMERICAN EMPHASIS, THAT WE'RE JUST GOING TO GET BETTER AND BETTER.
AND FRANKLIN WAS LIKE THE POSTER CHILD FOR SELF-IMPROVEMENT.
JUST COULD NOT STOP TRYING TO LEARN MORE, BE MORE, OBVIOUSLY, THE VIRTUES, THE LIST OF VIRTUES HE CONCOCTED WHEN HE WAS A KID.
AND I THINK WE ALL, AT LEAST I FOLLOW IN THAT, LIKE, I THINK I'M NOT AN EXCEPTIONAL PERSON, BUT I AM KIND OF A GROWER, AND IN BEING A GROWER, I'M DEFINITELY FOLLOWING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
>> DAVID BROOKS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU, WALTER.
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